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Post by Ben Osborn on Jul 9, 2013 14:03:24 GMT -5
I agree with Juliana. I think Jack is too selfish to be an effective leader. I feel like he has always been envious of Ralph's leadership of the boys. He has his own agenda and this could be dangerous
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Post by Ben Osborn on Jul 9, 2013 14:04:44 GMT -5
Ralph is no doubt the better leader
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Juliana Lassiter ♥☻
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Post by Juliana Lassiter ♥☻ on Jul 11, 2013 10:11:42 GMT -5
I'm in the middle of chapter 7 and I love the littl story about Ralph's childhood. It's starting to get a little spooky with everyone finally starting to believe in the beast. All these boys are so obnoxious and adventurous it's crazy they're still making it on the island. Theres not much order. Hopefully Ralph will learn how to control soon.
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Post by Mr. Grondin on Jul 11, 2013 20:52:59 GMT -5
I like how Golding, when describing the island, has used the color pink a couple of times. It makes the island sound different and even more mysterious. I especially noticed all the pink when I was reading, too, Juliana -- especially when he was describing the cliffs. Maybe I'm too English teachery, but I'm always looking for what colors could represent, and I have to say, the pink leaves me stumped. It reminds me of... beauty, little girls, people with chubby faces, salmon... and I don't know where to go with that. When he describes how dark the jungle is, that's easy... but pink!? Maybe a sign that I'm trying too hard. :)  I wanted to pick this back up because I too noticed the use of pink a lot...up until Chapter 4. In Chapter 4, the "Pink" starts to go away... The above is Jack talking excitedly about his new plan to sneak up on the pigs during the hunt. He has to redo his mask once before he's satisfied and This was the second to last mention of pink in the Chapter. And the other mention was describing the mountain and stones instead of people, This change of describing the children as pink to using darker colors continues into Chapter 5, which is almost exclusively nighttime action. When I think pink, I think of raw meat, uncooked, untainted. I don't think it's a coincidence that Chapter 4 is the same chapter that a pig is killed, the fire goes out when they could have been saved, and the pink gives way to darkness. I think Golding is using this shift from pink to help represent the boys starting to become more savage, tainted, cooked. The last thing I'll leave you with is that things are definitely heating up in the Jack vs. Piggy plot line! Happy Reading! Mr. Grondin |
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 11, 2013 22:07:52 GMT -5
Mr. Grondin and I just finished reading chapter five together today, which I found absolutely fascinating. There is so much packed into that late night emergency council that Ralph calls... and some of Golding's themes begin to emerge clearly. Three episodes I found the most interesting: #1. We see Ralph maturing rapidly right before our eyes in the beginning of the chapter. In the beginning of the novel he's impulsive and pleasure-seeking, barely able to control his own thoughts and actions. At the beginning of this chapter he's brooding, reflective, solemn, practical... even philosophical! He's also more appreciative of Piggy, which I personally think is awesome, because Piggy rocks. #2. The episode where Simon tries to speak up at the meeting is amazing. The boys are discussing the existence of the beast, and Simon just stammers out: How ambiguous! He could mean "Maybe it's just in our heads and we're frightening ourselves for no reason"... or he could mean that we, ourselves, are the beast. Simon can't quite make his meaning clear... he And then Jack makes Simon's question into a dirty joke and his chance to make his point evaporates. But even though it's just a short series of incomplete stammers and one unanswered question, Simon's words have depth and force. Incidentally, when Simon asks, "What's the dirtiest thing there is?"... what do you guys think he was going for? And what do you think Jack came up with? Because Golding doesn't tell us either in the book!#3. How ironic when Piggy & Ralph are talking about the grown ups! ...umm, anyone remember why all those kids were in the plane that crashed in the first place? What do you think Golding's point is with this (ironic) conversation? |
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Post by Annah Durbin on Jul 12, 2013 13:37:10 GMT -5
I like how we get to met the Lord of the Flies. It is really disturbing in some ways. And I am a little worried about Simon, he is surely losing it! And I also like how the boys are starting to break off into their own "tribe" so to say. I am really enjoying it! :)
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Post by Ben Osborn on Jul 12, 2013 15:05:45 GMT -5
In my opinion it seems like The Lord of the Flies is a symbol for something. It didnt seem to me like Simon actually saw it, did he?
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Post by Nick Tyler on Jul 12, 2013 23:29:59 GMT -5
I find it that the boys are embrassing being without adults so when they miss their chance to get rescued. This story has me entertained and I can't wait to see what happens? The story's of the boys everyday survival. Their triumphs and failures. I am interested to see what happens next
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Post by juliadciocca on Jul 15, 2013 10:15:18 GMT -5
In the last four chapters, the story has greatly changed, and we have seen the development of two very different societies. I feel like the one led by Ralph represents a society like ours; one guided by reason and intelligence rather than instinct and savagery. Jack's tribe on the other hand represents the wildness that humans have evolved away from. Ralph's tribe, however, seems to be failing, and it was interesting how easily it seemed for a group of school boys to fall so far away from civility. I felt like Ralph represented what we know and Jack represented what our instincts tell us. I also thought that the discussion about the beast was interesting because the older boys never believed that there was a beast until they put it into their heads. They are afraid of their own fabrications and of each other. It's like Piggy said, there is no one to fear unless they are afraid of themselves.
The part about the pink being so prominent and then disappearing was intriguing. I feel like it represented when they were still innocent and when everything was still fun; then as it disappeared it showed that they had become more savage.
I do think Jack is more selfish. I think he wants to be great and seem great, but Ralph really doesn't care as long as he gets home. He doesn't want to be out done by Jack, but if he got to go home, I don't think he would be upset if Jack had his own tribe or not. However, I do think it's starting to cloud what is important or not in the grand scheme of things, which I believe will heighten the conflict between the two.
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Post by Ben Averyt on Jul 15, 2013 12:16:34 GMT -5
I feel like in these last four chapters. Alot of our predictions after the first four have come true. And by that I mean that there has been a split in the society. It seems like Ralph is trying to run it as similar as the normal society that they came from. And it seems like Jack is leading them away from that normal society into something way different. I think that at this point Ralph is being a better leader than Jack. I feel that Ralph cares more about everyone's well being way more than Jack. who seems to be much more self centered. When reading this you can tell Ralphs urge to go home.
I am excited about the last four chapters.
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Post by Hannah Hoefer on Jul 15, 2013 20:25:01 GMT -5
Just like everyone predicted, the group of boys have now split up. Ralph is so upset that the others don't see the importance of the fire. He really just wants to go home. I understand how he feels. I would not want to face the inner savage that seems to be coming out in most of them. Jack is showing more and more selfishness and the good in him is getting harder to see. How can a group of innocent school boys reach a point where they would try to harm Robert just because they were caught up in a game. Now that they think the beast is real, their fear is turning them away from the way of life they had know, and showing a very different side of human nature. The description of the head on the stick, totally grossed me out. But I was also glad to finally know what the "Lord of the Flies" meant. I'm a little confused about Simon. He seems to be the nicest to everyone and he tries to not take sides. He is enjoying the island and the freedom and does not seem to be savage at all. It must be hard for him, I think seeing the head on the spear worried him. He does not want to think that the boys can be turning into savages. If only the signal fire had been lit when the planes flew over them, maybe they would have been home by now. If they have a home to go back to, after the mention of the atom bombs.
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Post by Ashton Boda on Jul 15, 2013 21:21:45 GMT -5
In these chapters I am being drawn into this story more and more. I think it is funny how they are making up this beast in their minds. Especially in chapter six. They say that this "beast" was chasing them and that it had teeth even though it never happened. They are letting their imaginations go wild. Then when Jack, Ralph, and all the older boys go to look for the beast we see how reasonable Ralph is. He is being logical about possibly catching this beast with wooden spears. He is not afraid to say he is a little scared and tries to knock some sense into Jack. Simon also seems to be going crazy. Of course what else could you expect from a boy who gets stranded on an island. I was surprised to find
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Post by Ashton Boda on Jul 15, 2013 21:24:20 GMT -5
I was surprised to find out who The Lord of the Flies is. I thought it would be Jack or Ralph or any of the older boys not a pig head. That was something I didn't really see coming.
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 15, 2013 22:18:33 GMT -5
I feel like the one led by Ralph represents a society like ours; one guided by reason and intelligence rather than instinct and savagery. Jack's tribe on the other hand represents the wildness that humans have evolved away from. Ralph's tribe, however, seems to be failing, and it was interesting how easily it seemed for a group of school boys to fall so far away from civility. I guess my question for you is... does Golding believe that "our" society is truly guided by reason and intelligence? Do you remember, for example, what's currently happening in the grown up world that the boys have left behind? And Golding aside, do you guys think that we're all Ralphs today? Is there any Jack in us? |
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 15, 2013 22:40:43 GMT -5
Ch. 7 and 8 are amazing -- so much going on in terms of plot and character development, plus they're both more fun than a barrel of monkeys. The long-awaited schism has arrived and Simon is talking to a severed bleeding pig's head impaled on a stick. What more could you want?
I don't think I expected that Simon would be such an important character nearer to the beginning of the novel, but he has really become significant. He seems, in some ways, to be the only real outsider of the group. Even Piggy has started to gain status with Ralph, who recognizes his intellectual abilities; Piggy himself craves to be one with the group:
Simon, on the other hand, purposefully seeks out solitude, as when he wanders away from the fire-making to his little cave in the jungle. When the other boys notice that he's missing, there's no big panic to go looking for him. And in fact, Piggy -- formerly the butt of all the jokes -- is the one who laughs and calls him "cracked" (118). Yet, as Ashton pointed out in one her her posts, Simon is in a lot of ways the kindest and even the wisest of the boys, even though he has trouble expressing what he's trying to say.
All of this makes his -- hallucinations? -- at the end of chapter eight particularly interesting. I was really struck when the Lord of the Flies / Simon (since it's suggested that it's all in Simon's head) says:
I think this held particular fascination for me because Simon seems to be directed the blame inward, at himself, even though we, the audience, perceive him as one of the least savage on the island. The LOTF / Simon doesn't say "I'm part of them" or "I'm Jack"... but "part of you." We're all a part of the problem. We're all flawed. We all have some (or more than we care to admit) Jack in us. This is much less aligned with our society's feel-good philosophy of "I'm Okay, You're Okay" (we really shy away from guilt and shame and pointing fingers because we don't want to offend) but very well-aligned with the doctrine of Original Sin.
Then again, Simon tells himself -- as LOTF -- some pretty nasty and unhelpful things, so Golding might not be arguing that Simon deserves the blame that he seems to be heaping upon himself. All the same, I think we need to avoid coming to very neat conclusions -- Ralph & Piggy good, Jack bad -- and realize that Golding's vision of the world is more complex... and as a result rather more disturbing.
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