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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 25, 2013 20:31:29 GMT -5
I feel like Piggy is a essential character but he also annoys me a little in parts of the story. One thing I like about this novel is that even though there is tons of obvious allegorical significance, it's not a perfect correspondence... i.e., it's not just that Jack = evil and Ralph = good leader and Piggy = reason/intelligence... there's a little bit of Jack in Ralph -- Ralph acknowledges an "indefinable connection between himself and Jack" (166), for example, and Piggy is often lazy, fearful, etc. Golding lets his characters be real people as well as symbols -- which is why the book works.
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Post by juliadciocca on Jul 25, 2013 20:32:09 GMT -5
I finished reading the book last night, and the first thing I wanted to say is that I am so sad Piggy died. I really liked his character; however, in a way I think it had to happen. I always thought Piggy represented democracy and the understanding that even though people don't look perfect, they can be intelligent and good leaders if they are given the chance. (Ralph's society may have been the one to represent a structure more like our own, but he often required Piggy to keep him on track when his mind started slipping.) Therefore, when he died, he represented the final loss of real democracy and opened up the island to the savagery of Jack's tribe. With that said, I think the part where Piggy suggests going to the feast held by Jack's tribe shows that human logic is tainted. Our logic reflects our emotions, beliefs, and desires. Piggy wanted to go see the feast and eat meat, but logically nothing good could possibly come of their going, and in the end, it results in them committing murder. It also explains how the adults, which were supposed to be the logical rule-makers, could be at war. So, while I believe that our society is run by logic, I do admit that it is a tainted logic.
I think at the end I had two moments of frightening realization. One was that they were kids. While I had always pictured them as nine or ten year olds, it never really hit me how young they were until the naval officer showed up and asked them if they were playing. They had killed two kids, and others had already died, yet they were still only fourth and fifth graders. The second was when I realized Piggy was still over weight. At first, I didn't think much of it, but it started to bug me that he didn't lose any weight when stranded on an island for what I felt had been a long period of time; then I realized it probably wasn't as long as I was imagining, so it was frightening that a group of school boys could become so savage so quickly. The book showed me that no matter how far we think humans have grown away form our animalistic qualities, they're still there.
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Post by spence on Jul 25, 2013 20:37:28 GMT -5
I cant decide if i am happy with the ending or not. i mean that whole great big book and they get saved by the navy? or Ralph would have been killed... i dont know i think that the story kind of ended right in the middle of the climax while Ralph was running out of the burning jungle and then all of a sudden, POOF..... everybody is saved. i liked that Ralph lived but i was sad that the story just stopped. Other than that i thought the book was FANTASTIC. It was very similar to The Hunger Games just how Ms. Kalmar said. I read some things online to figure out how long this story was and the results were that it was almost two years. I dont know if that is true but i had no idea it was that long, maybe i just missed it somewhere, but i thought it was just a month or two. That information would have helped alot during the book because i was surprised at how fast the boys could go insane enough to kill one another. The book was FANTASTIC and i am very glad that i read it.
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 25, 2013 20:38:11 GMT -5
********************* SPOILER ALERT *********************************** Just finished the book. I was sooo relieved that Ralph was saved. I don't really care about what happens to the rest of them though because they were so mean. I think by the end of the book, no one was what they were. They had all changed, and gone completely mad. Something had taken over inside of them and they were filled with sellfishness. Who cared about the others as long as he himself could live? Without the grown-ups, the order, and the rules, the boys had lost sight of what was important. It makes me wonder why Ralph was the only one, besides Piggy, that never lost sight of what was important. What made him so special? Maybe his parents had made a bigger impact on him then the other boys' parents had. I'm also wondering when exactly the officer got to the island. Because one second he's being chased by 'savages'and then the next is the officer. When all the boys coward and let Ralph take charge I realized: he always controlled them. Even when they were under Jack they were worried about Ralph. I think you pulled out a great quote, Juliana! So much of these boys identity was wrapped up in their civilization & bound by the limitations of society... when that was taken away, their identities became radically different. And yet... we have to assume that the darker, savage side was always there. Even the littluns show signs of it, here and there, like when little Henry is playing with the tiny sea creatures, "absorbed beyond mere happiness as he felt himself exercising control over living things" (51). And if those boys had stayed back in Britain instead of winding up on this island, they might have grown up to be the men who waged war and dropped nuclear weapons and killed hundreds of thousands of citizens...
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 25, 2013 20:46:29 GMT -5
With that said, I think the part where Piggy suggests going to the feast held by Jack's tribe shows that human logic is tainted. Our logic reflects our emotions, beliefs, and desires. Piggy wanted to go see the feast and eat meat, but logically nothing good could possibly come of their going, and in the end, it results in them committing murder. It also explains how the adults, which were supposed to be the logical rule-makers, could be at war. So, while I believe that our society is run by logic, I do admit that it is a tainted logic. Awesome insight, Julia. I think it's important to recognize that Golding has a very complex view of the world and societies... he doesn't want us to be stuck thinking PIGGY = LOGIC, JACK = EVIL any more than he wants us to think DEMOCRACY = ALWAYS PERFECT. I think at the end I had two moments of frightening realization. One was that they were kids. While I had always pictured them as nine or ten year olds, it never really hit me how young they were until the naval officer showed up and asked them if they were playing. They had killed two kids, and others had already died, yet they were still only fourth and fifth graders. I was really struck by this again, too, Julia! I mean, obviously you know as you're reading that these are really young kids, but you do start to lose sight of it. And the way that Golding reminds us just took my breath away. Ralph has just met the naval officer, exchanged a single word, and then Golding writes that The "he" is ambiguous... it seems like it's talking about Ralph (who is mentioned in the sentence before), but as though it's through the eyes of the naval officer. There are no "hunters" here, no "spears"... just "little boys" with "sharp sticks." It feels as though Ralph has grown up in an instant, suddenly seeing things as they are... and because Golding so skillfully manages the point-of-view here, it's like we grow up with Ralph and receive this same new insight.
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 25, 2013 20:51:33 GMT -5
I cant decide if i am happy with the ending or not. i mean that whole great big book and they get saved by the navy? or Ralph would have been killed... i dont know i think that the story kind of ended right in the middle of the climax while Ralph was running out of the burning jungle and then all of a sudden, POOF..... everybody is saved. I get what you're saying here, for sure! It does seem a bit like deus ex machina (a literary thing where the author just has something wildly improbable happen to advance the plot... literally it means "god in the machine"). At the same time, I think some very important things happen in that short scene with the naval officer... we're reminded, as Julia pointed out, how young these kids realy are... we see Ralph age years and years in an instant... we see Jack's final cowardice and Ralph's terrible courage... and we have to think about what's going to happen to these kids when they get back to society. Are they really "saved"? Will they ever be the same again? Will they actually fit right back into a society that is (somewhat furtively) built on the same principles of power and aggression?
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Post by Mr. Grondin on Jul 25, 2013 21:10:58 GMT -5
Simon, to me seems like a metaphor for Jesus. The kids should listen to him but they don't and as we know they end up killing him for a reason that isn't even justified. Good call on this comparison! The chapter before he stumbles out he is putting a lot of the blame on himself for the way the other children are starting to act (Jesus takes on the sins of the world). Then he stumbles out in the darkness and the other boys beat/stab/spear him to death (Jesus is crucified on the cross). It is by no means a perfect comparison because Simon does not come back from the dead - that really wouldn't work in this context like it works in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, but I think that Golding did intend for us to look at Simon as a Jesus like character. Do you think this is true with all people? I think given the right set of circumstances in a community - regardless of location, you can manage to "stand each other" for quite a long time. What are some things that you think could have helped? My first thought is: I bet you'll be very surprised at who says the above, if you don't remember... And this wouldn't be a post by Mr. Grondin if I didn't bring up the Pink! There was one last resurgence in Chapter 11: This seemed to me to hint at that fact that despite all of Jack's paint, somewhere inside him there is still a sense of order/democracy. However, the next thing that happens is the twins are tied up, and Jack and Ralph start fighting. There's a slight break in the violence in which Ralph and Piggy shout about what things are better than what: Then to push it even further, Golding finally kills off Piggy, and with him goes the Conch and the Pink: The Conch and Piggy both represented order/democracy, so the timing of this last use of pink solidifies for me what we've been guessing at from the halfway point. After Piggy's death, things get chaotic as Jack tries to trap and kill Ralph. Then, Ralph gets the smoke he has been wanting all the time they've been trapped on the island and they are rescued. And, lo and behold, Jack Merridew falls into line... Here's my last interesting tidbit: William Golding spent some time as a teacher. How many of these characters do you imagine were inspired by his students? What a good book! Happy Reading! Mr. Grondin
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Post by Ms. Kalmar on Jul 25, 2013 21:40:27 GMT -5
I've already touched on a few of the things that really stood out to me in these last four chapters in responses to other comments, but I did want to touch on two other things! #1. Piggy as the Blind Sage. When Piggy lost his glasses, my English teacher senses really started tingling. In world literature, there is a recurring "archetype" or pattern of the "blind sage"... i.e., someone who is physically blind, but mentally/spiritually/morally/intellectually perceptive. These people gained a special wisdom by losing their vision... almost as if they were so distracted by the world around them that when it was taken away from them, they could reach a higher truth. Examples... In Greek mythology, Tiresias was blinded by the gods and thereafter able to tell the future. In Norse mythology, the father of the gods, Odin, sacrifices one of his eyes for knowledge. So, after Piggy lost his specs, I noticed that he starts to really tell it like it is. Until now, he's been intelligent and reasonable, but also scared and clearly craving protection and acceptance. He denied that Simon's death was murder earlier, but after his specs are gone, he speaks the truth: And he demonstrates his new courage, too... he willingly, proudly even, allows himself to be lead straight to the rock castle, where he speaks up fearlessly, even once Jack and Ralph are fighting with spears, and Samneric are tied up: Blind to the world, Piggy gains access to a higher truth and the courage to proclaim it... and unfortunately it kills him. Our society has a bad track record with killing people who speak uncomfortable truths (compare: Christ, Jesus). #2. "I am." I think these two words, uttered by Ralph when the naval officer asks who's in charge, are among the most meaningful in the book. He's far from perfect, but here Ralph shows real leadership... he accepts responsibility at a moment when there's nothing to gain and everything to lose. He could have tried to blame Jack -- a lot of us probably think he should have -- but he doesn't. What's more, Piggy, Simon, and Ralph each have a critical moment in this book when they take responsibility upon themselves -- which leads to their demise but also, in some way, to their salvation. Simon's critical moment is first, as he's crouching in the forest, hallucinating, and the Lord of the Flies "speaks" to him: He could have blamed the other boys -- we recognized Simon as the kindest and the gentlest on the island -- but he doesn't. He points a finger at himself. Piggy's critical moment I mentioned above... once he loses his specs and gains wisdom, he accepts a truth he had been trying to deny... "Young Simon was murdered" (154). He no longer tries to deny responsibility. He points a finger at himself. And finally, at the end of the book, it's Ralph turn. He's been hailing himself chief since they voted for him in that first assembly, and in the bitter end, he does not back down. He points a finger at himself. I think these moments are absolutely critical to understanding one of Golding's take away messages of this book. If we look at these boys and think, "Man, these kids are crazy," we've kind of missed the point. There's nothing particularly special about this group of kids -- there is a problem with humankind itself. The problem is with each and every single one of us, and if we want to fix it -- put an end to jealousy and war and poverty and hunger and every other evil that plagues our world -- we have to turn our gaze inwards. It's not "them," it's all of us -- each of us. This isn't anything new for us Catholics -- it's called original sin, and it's serious business. We get in trouble when we try to blame others, even when it seems OBVIOUS that others are to blame... instead, we need to recognize that our own anger, jealousy, hurtful words, exclusion, selfishness, materialism, etc, etc, etc ultimately spring from the same root as the world's other ills. There are a lot of things we can't change around us, but we do have power (in God) to change ourselves, to take responsibility, and to strive to be true and courageous.
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Post by Annah Durbin on Aug 30, 2013 13:18:32 GMT -5
"Lord of the Flies" by: William Golding When a group of young boys crash on a deserted island, they start to have order, but it soon turns into complete chaos. The main character Ralph, and his "sidekick" Piggy, try to turn the boys into a structured society. Then Jack divides up the boys by "Hunters". The "Hunters" don't even seem to care about being rescued at that point because all they seem to care about is hunt,hunt,and more hunting. They even have a ritual for coaxing out pigs to hunt. In one case they killed and gutted a pig and left it's head and entrails lying on the ground. A boy named Simon, who was starting to lose his sanity, stumbles upon the gruesome scene and becomes transfixed on the sight. He then mounts the pig's head on a stick and he starts to have a conversation with the Pig. He gave it the name "Lord of the Flies" because of all the flies that were swarming around it.(I found this scene really interesting because the name "Lord of the Flies" refers to a demon's nickname, named Beelzebub! I really thought that was cool! ) When the Hunters started to hunt at night, they,by accident, killed Simon thinking that he was some sort of monster. In another scene, Piggy gets pushed off the cliff. What led up to that was that Ralph was trying to get Piggy's glasses back after they took them on night by surprise. Towards the end, Ralph gets hunted by Jack's "Hunters" that's when Ralph fell at the feet of a man who was with the army at the beach. I choose this book because I heard that it was a classic and that I would really enjoy it! And I did! I enjoyed it because it had to do with survival and intense scenes. Anyone looking for adventure and action would enjoy this book!
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