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Post by Erin Yen on Jun 6, 2013 18:24:53 GMT -5
Our Book:
The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger
Book Schedule: Chapters 1-5 by July 3
Chapters 6-10 by July 8
Chapters 11-15 by July 13
Chapters 16-20 by July 18
Chapters 21-26 by July 23
~Anyone who wants to, please join! We'd love to have you!~
**This is on the AP reading list, so it should get that out of the way for you! At the day each group of chapters is due, we can post and discuss it, though there is no reason you can't post comments throughout (there will be lenience with the first date. I understand with the the holidays and the difficultly of finding a copy on short notice, that some people will have trouble making the very first deadline). The overall discussion is due July 25th!**
**As an extra motivator, this book is fairly short, and I've heard it's actually pretty good!**
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Post by Erin Yen on Jul 3, 2013 15:20:53 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure what we are supposed to discuss here, but I'm just going to throw some things out there. Do with it as you will.
So far I don't really like the narrator, Holden. He's really negative. I'm pretty sure his life would be a lot easier if he would stop being so negative. He's convinced himself he's going to be kicked out of all the schools, so he is. He is convinced that all people are irritating, so to him, they are. He has slanted his point of view so drastically that he can't see anything but the negativity he expects.
However, we briefly see another side to him; when he talks about Allie so lovingly, we realize that he may not always have been this bitter. We see that he truly loved his brother, and believed that Allie was the most wonderful person ever; obviously, Allie meant a lot to Holden, and maybe his negative outlook on life came from the fact that Allie, such an amazingly good person, was taken from his life at so horribly young an age by such a horribly miserable illness. I believe that when Allie died, Holden almost "gave up" on life. Not literally - but I think he just stopped caring.
I also think that he might have feelings for the girl that Stradlater is taking out, Jane Gallagher. He remembers every detail about her, and seems slightly upset that Stradlater is taking her out. He wants to say hello, but he decides not to. I think that she may be important later on in the story.
I get the feeling that Holden isn't really as bitter and sarcastic as he lets on. I think he felt helpless when his brother was dying, because he couldn't stop it or even help with the pain - therefore, he has decided that he is useless, and so he acts like it; which then causes other people to treat him like he's useless, which then just confirms his idea that he is. It's like a cycle that he's gotten himself stuck in, and I get the feeling that he may try to break out of this cycle by trying to make up, somehow, for Allie's death.
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Post by Jourdyn Scott on Jul 3, 2013 21:59:08 GMT -5
I am very interested in Holden's character, because he seems to be hiding behind a mask in the first couple of chapters. Holden got kicked out of many schools, struggled with his grades, and had a very stubborn and dry personality. Holden didn't seem like he really cared about what happened in his life or to the people around him, but I felt like they made a bigger impact on his life than he let on. When Holden talked about his brother Allie who dies of leukemia at a very young age, I could see the way Holden felt about him. There was a gentleness in his words, that made me understand how much he really cared for Allie. After Allie died, I believe Holden was afraid to show any feeling of affection for another person, because he did not want them to be taken from him, and he didn't want to have to bear the immense feeling of loss once again. Later in the book, Holden's roommate Stradler went out on a date with Holden's good friend Jane Gallagher. Holden pondered going to say hello and catching up with her, but later decided that he shouldn't take the risk. I thought it was strange how much he talked about her, and he didn't even say hello. I think Holden is misunderstood. I believe he is wanting to forget about what happened, or go back and try to change it. He doesn't want to be in a world without his bestfriend Allie.
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Post by juliadmartinez on Jul 3, 2013 22:03:37 GMT -5
Erin, I completely agree with you about Holden's pessimistic attitude! I won't go as far to say that I don't like him, because I feel like Allie's death made him act the way he does. Also I find it pretty frustrating to see how little he applies himself towards his academics. He needs a new outlook on life. I think a positive role-model will do him some good! Then again, I think he has a lot of built up anger and emotions inside him and he's not sure how to express them. Better yet, who to share them to. Allie's death struck him at such a young and hard age, which added to the strength of the impact. I like how talked about the "cycle"! I think that's a good way of explaining his behavior.
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Post by Erin Yen on Jul 3, 2013 22:09:02 GMT -5
I agree with Jourdyn. I don't really like the outside image Holden presents, but deep down I think he still cares - he has just decided it's less painful to not care. Building on what Jourdyn said about not wanting to care for someone, I think that's why he didn't go say hello to Jane - he's afraid if he has contact with her, he'll end up caring about her, and that it will only lead to more pain.
Julia - you're totally right. It's not that I don't like him, I just don't care for his attitude, the show he puts on for everyone. I think I might like the real him, if he would actually let it through.
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Post by Christian Curling on Jul 6, 2013 14:43:44 GMT -5
You'll have to forgive my tardiness, I've been working at a school in Indiana!
I rather enjoy the harshness and cynicism of the protagonist. Maybe it's because I relate, or because it's realistic, I don't know. I think it is justifiable due to his circumstances. However, it would be healthy for him to change. So far, I love the story. It is relatable and realistic, and I hope it keeps the same tone for awhile.
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Post by Mica Martinez on Jul 6, 2013 23:17:24 GMT -5
Okay guys, I'm so sorry for the late reply! So far I've found the story very interesting. I agree with Jourdyn, Holden definitely seems to be hiding behind a mask with his negativity and cynicism. I think isolating himself and being the way he is may be a way of protecting himself. He doesn't want anyone to know how he really feels. I do think that Allie's death plays a big part in why he is the way he is. I also agree with Julia, it is frustrating how he doesn't apply himself when it comes to academics. He seems intelligent but just doesn't care about anything. Holden's character is very interesting to me, and I actually enjoy how cynical he is even though it can be somewhat depressing. He is definitely hiding his feelings, and maybe he will open up later in the book.
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Post by Jourdyn Scott on Jul 8, 2013 13:28:37 GMT -5
When Holden's roommate Stradler returned from his date with Jane Gallagher, Holden questioned Stradler about what happened with her. When Stradler wouldn't tell Holden about the date, Holden got very upset. Holden and Stradler end up fighting, and Holden gets a bloody nose. I think Holden got so upset because he really likes Jane, but he won't admit it. Holden then decided to leave Pency Prep a few days early and stay in a motel before returning home. I think Holden is upset because he knows that he disappointed his parents by getting expelled. my favorite part of these chapters was when Holden talked about his little sister Phoebe. He said Phoebe was the prettiest, smartest, best person in the entire world. he loved her, and when he spoke of her he seemed happy. i think Phoebe is Holends second favorite person, next to Allie.
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Post by Hayden Doyle on Jul 8, 2013 19:34:23 GMT -5
Well, I think so far I am in the lead for the latest reply; but that's because I couldn't get the book until recently. I'm guessing every high school student in the metro is reading it this summer. I agree with what everyone has said. Holden loved his brother, Allie, and was emotionally broken when Allie died. Now he is a very negative and depressed person. There are only three people he has said good things about, his sister, Phoebe, his brother, Allie, and his old friend Jane, who he seems to be avoiding for some reason. They are really the only positive things he has talked about. So, that's really how the first 10 chapters have been - depressing. And I'm not sure if its going to get any better, because it sounds like he is writing this from some kind of psychiatric ward. My favorite part so far was when he was on the train and he messed with the mom of one of the boys from Pencey he didn't like. I just thought it was funny how he lies for no reason at all. It makes no sense to behave that way. He does it for no reason at all. Maybe he does it to reflect attention from his "personal" self.
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Post by Erin Yen on Jul 8, 2013 20:03:13 GMT -5
Hey again! So the tone definitely hasn't changed in the next five chapters. It is still very negative, but we are beginning to see that Holden isn't entirely the jerk he pretends to be. It is obvious now that he does care about some people; his brother Allie, his sister Pheobe, and Jane. He seems to be completely fighting his affection for Jane, however, probably because he is afraid that if he cares for her, he will just get hurt. His concern for her going out with Stradlater, who has a certain reputation, however, shows that he does care for her, deep down. Finally, he decides to run away from Pencey, because he is so lonely. This shows that though he pushes people away from him, Holden, like everyone else, still needs companionship. This is again exemplified when he feels the urge to call someone on the phone upon his arrival in New York. He wants to talk to someone, but there are all these things standing in the way of him calling anyone, and this, I think, could symbolize the barrier he puts between him and the world to keep himself from caring or growing too close to anyone. I think that he truly does want to matter to someone, to mean something, to be close to people, but he has experienced so much pain so early in life that he is afraid of caring about anything anymore. When he talks to the boy's mother on the train to New York, he lies, and it shows how he feels slightly bad about lying, but somehow cannot stop; I believe he is still very decent deep down, but again, he doesn't want to show anything that could be perceived as a weakness; he's put up an invisible shield to shut out all the pain, which has in turn shut out everything, good and bad alike, and he's simply trained himself not to care about the effects it might have on himself and others.
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Post by juliadmartinez on Jul 8, 2013 22:46:46 GMT -5
Personally, I think Holden is lonely. He needs someone to have a true intellectual conversation with. He just assumes people won't care what he has to say. Not only that, he assumes they're all stupid, so why bother. Also when Stradlater mentions taking Jane out you can see how interested Holden is in this gal. I think if Holden would have just come out and told Stradlater how he felt, he could have avoided a possible broken nose. But as we all know, Holden fears having his emotions exposed. I think his loneliness really peaks when he feels the need to leave, has no one to call, and decides to interacts with the three ditzes. I'm guessing Jane really sparked nice conversations with Holden because he seems more attracted to intelligent women.
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Post by juliadmartinez on Jul 8, 2013 22:50:29 GMT -5
Also on another note, I really enjoy the way Holden narrates things. I really feel like we're inside Holden's head and personal thoughts. (Duh, that's the point of a good story), but the way he talks just flows so easily. It's so casual.
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Post by Erin Yen on Jul 8, 2013 23:33:00 GMT -5
Julia, I never thought about it but it's true! The book itself is very deep, but the narration is very casual and easy to get through. It's not even like Holden is talking specially to an audience, it's like we're inside his mind and hearing everything he thinks.
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Post by Mica Martinez on Jul 9, 2013 22:06:56 GMT -5
I've decided that I really need to double check the schedule.. Sorry again for being late! Holden obviously cares about Jane and has some type of feelings for her. He knows what type of guy Stradlater and seems to be concerned about the two going out. I agree with Erin, if he cares too much for her and lets anyone know, he thinks he will get hurt. After leaving Pencey, he gets on a train and sits next to an older woman, Mrs. Morrow, and basically lies to her the whole time. In my opinion, I think Holden lies because he is insecure and thinks no one will care what he actually has to say (like Julia said) We see a different, caring side of him when he describes his younger sister, Phoebe, in a loving way. I thought it was actually funny picturing him in a nightclub flirting with three older women, knowing he had no chance. Holden still seems to be shutting out other people. I agree with Erin, it seems like he has just trained himself not to care about anything.
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Post by Erin Yen on Jul 12, 2013 21:25:10 GMT -5
I won't be able to post anything tomorrow, so I'll just do this tonight!
Ok, so I'm starting to at least sort of respect Holden. I think the only reason he doesn't like some of the more shallow people, is because he thinks it's unfair that they should be here, alive, when Allie, so smart and sweet, died painfully when he was so young. I don't blame him for being a little resentful. However, overall, I'm starting to think he's a fairly decent person, deep down under the cursing and negativity and attitude. For example, when he talks about being one of the guys who stops when a girl says stopped, it shows that he seems to respect girls' wishes, even when so many guys don't. He just doesn't feel right forcing things, and I respect that very much. This is backed up when he has Maurice send Sunny to his room. When she gets there, he can't do it; he begins to see her as a person, instead of a product, and he realizes it would be wrong to do anything with her. Then, I think that the reason he keeps moving around and trying to have a conversation with anyone - the taxi driver, the piano player, Sunny - and his setting up a date with a girl he doesn't really like - shows that he is still very lonely. He wants companionship, but nothing with too much commitment or emotion - again, going back to being afraid of getting hurt. Speaking of caring too much, he talks about Jane quite a lot in the first few chapters of this set. It's pretty clear that she has found a place in his heart, despite his many efforts to keep her out. I think that at some point in this book, he is going to have to confront his feelings about her. Finally, there is the encounter with the nuns. Holden is surprisingly well mannered, having a very civil conversation with these nuns, and even donating to their charity and trying to pay for their breakfast. He seems to genuinely like them, and having a conversation with them; going back to his loneliness and dislike of shallow people, I think he was very grateful to have intelligent conversation with someone, no matter who they were. It seems a little funny though, almost ironic - most people would be perfectly comfortable talking with people their own age, but Holden seems to have trouble with this. Conversely, many people would be highly uncomfortable talking to nuns they just met, but Holden seemed to enjoy talking with them.
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